As we know, Sadism and Masochism are part of human/animal nature. I was just wondering why? What is the most primal purpose?
I know in BDSM such is a tool used to release brain chemical and make us feel good, and that these same chemicals are released in dying animals, so that when they are dangling from the jaws of a predator, such potions can take the edge off.
Masochism seems to also be used in ritual to show devotion to something... eg. the paddling of the arse, or a Sundance or even being branded or tattooed with certain signatures.
...Or when you take one for the team! Like working a crappy job because it is beneficial for your family.
But what about sadism? Cats are sadistic when they spend hours playing with their prey - does it improve their hunting skills and keep them sharp?
People will use sadism to gain control over others - physical/mental/sexual domination to manipulate someone into being more compliant.
Do we need to be sadistic to be effective parents. eg. holding your child down to get a shot or actually implementing punishment to curb certain behaviours.
Anyway, just thinking about shit...
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Sadism and Masochism | Forum
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Hartnell
Jan 4 '16
As we know, if one swallows a statement without proof, one is known, scientifically and holistically under the special term which originates from east Ancient Egypt, 'a rube'.
The Forum post is edited by Hartnell Jan 4 '16
Member JicNikk
Jan 4 '16
As we know, Sadism and Masochism are part of human/animal nature. I was just wondering why? What is the most primal purpose?I'll bite.. intellectually that is. This is all just my opinion but, I've thought about this one myself off and on. I would call it differences in mental stigma. One in a sense that some people are either naturally sadistic in tendency from an early age or gradually acquire the taste for it from a start of repulsion either by some sort of sadistic act committed against them, or a sheltered life that lead to discovery of power over those weaker than themselves.
I know in BDSM such is a tool used to release brain chemical and make us feel good, and that these same chemicals are released in dying animals, so that when they are dangling from the jaws of a predator, such potions can take the edge off.
Masochism seems to also be used in ritual to show devotion to something... eg. the paddling of the arse, or a Sundance or even being branded or tattooed with certain signatures.
...Or when you take one for the team! Like working a crappy job because it is beneficial for your family.
But what about sadism? Cats are sadistic when they spend hours playing with their prey - does it improve their hunting skills and keep them sharp?
People will use sadism to gain control over others - physical/mental/sexual domination to manipulate someone into being more compliant.
Do we need to be sadistic to be effective parents. eg. holding your child down to get a shot or actually implementing punishment to curb certain behaviours.
Anyway, just thinking about shit...
Same can be said for masochism. Speaking on such terms or phrases like "I'm a Glutton for Punishment". There's a sense of delight, fear, or plain incompetence to act for themselves that brings about feelings of total dependency and enjoyment of physical or mental pain.
I would argue though that the sense of sadism is instilled in humans more so than masochism. Some could say that finding submissive individuals is much easier to find than dominants in accordance to BDSM. However, nature would have it that even at an early age, humans do not truly 'enjoy' an oppressive element of any sort. As the OP mentioned parenting, I would like to apply this to my point that I feel most methods of parenting almost instill sadistic tendencies in their children. How many times as a child do you remember thinking to yourself how unfair that situation was, and took it out on something, or someone in a sort of retaliatory reaction? What about if you were picked on and you knew the parents of that kid or someone bigger should smack that kid a good one to teach them a lesson? I call that an introduction into a sadistic mindset as from that point one would seek power over something or someone.
The purpose of such instincts I feel could be either survivalist tendencies, or social/sexual ambiguity release.
This was of course a very basic example, but it was my two cents at least.
Member ShadowLover
Jan 5 '16
I think you are right when you say that people don't start off being sadistic or masochistic... That it is something which is released for survival or to help us cope with something.
I look at soldiers that have fought for many years... Some eventually reach a place where they are not happy if they can't live their life on the edge - they become almost addicted to the killing, or the intensity of the situation where killing and death are merely the bi-products... The necessary level of adrenaline to survive becomes the norm and the occasional hit of dopamine - the ecstatic high. They may not love it, but they have to do it to stay calm. Is this sadism?
I look at soldiers that have fought for many years... Some eventually reach a place where they are not happy if they can't live their life on the edge - they become almost addicted to the killing, or the intensity of the situation where killing and death are merely the bi-products... The necessary level of adrenaline to survive becomes the norm and the occasional hit of dopamine - the ecstatic high. They may not love it, but they have to do it to stay calm. Is this sadism?
Member JicNikk
Jan 5 '16
I think you are right when you say that people don't start off being sadistic or masochistic... That it is something which is released for survival or to help us cope with something.I've worked with a lot of Marines that have gone through some pretty fucked up situations and came out on top due to their training. I would say in a way they are kind of encouraged to be sadistic because it's either them or the enemy on the battlefield, and why teach someone to kill in a manner that they wouldn't get a rush out of it? It would be counter productive if the ideal is instilled that they should feel remorse on the spot of the life they just took. If you are familiar with military cadences, there are quite a few within the Marines that describe deathly fantasies against their enemy. I've even been told before that most of the time if they were in hostile situations that they would act as if they are dead already to take away the fear of it.
I look at soldiers that have fought for many years... Some eventually reach a place where they are not happy if they can't live their life on the edge - they become almost addicted to the killing, or the intensity of the situation where killing and death are merely the bi-products... The necessary level of adrenaline to survive becomes the norm and the occasional hit of dopamine - the ecstatic high. They may not love it, but they have to do it to stay calm. Is this sadism?
I do agree that many if not all are addicted to the rush of the battle, but they almost have to be.
I think I may have answered if this is all sadistic in nature, but to put it more simply.. yes. Without a doubt, but I feel it's a necessary sort of Sadism.
Member ShadowLover
Jan 6 '16
Absolutely JicNikk, such behaviour is necessary and even more than that, to be able to invoke sadism in such circumstances is a powerful thing.
Hartnell
Jan 6 '16
@Jnickk: It's equally as bad to train soldiers to get a rush out of it as it is to make them feel remorse. You want them to jump when you say jump.
Getting a rush out of a dangerous situation is called counterphobia. It doesn't require machismo.
The army cadences I know are humorous vagina references. Humor is debatable. Go figure.
The Forum post is edited by Hartnell Jan 6 '16
Member JicNikk
Jan 6 '16
@Jnickk: It's equally as bad to train soldiers to get a rush out of it as it is to make them feel remorse. You want them to jump when you say jump.I don't claim to have the right sort of ethics on the subject. I just know what I'm told and what I observe. Whether it's right or wrong honestly shouldn't be left up to an individual like me due to my opinion above that it's a necessary sort of sadism.
Getting a rush out of a dangerous situation is called counterphobia. It doesn't require machismo.
The army cadences I know are humorous vagina references. Humor is debatable. Go figure.
You can drone them out as much as you want but military training is all about unfucking civilian minds to shape how they like, and Marines are trained killers. Fun to drink with, but mostly crazy.
I miss the non politically correct cadences. Sensitivity has overreached it's bounds in society.
Hartnell
Jan 6 '16
@Jnick: My family has a long history of military service, though nobne of it in the Marines. What I've heard from them about Marines is that they're "bullet sponges" -- essentially expendible. So, I agree with you (based on what I've heard) that Marines are bit crazy, too pumped up, and a bit berzerk. But then we would have never breached Omaha Beach without them.
Anyway, when your chances of survival is low, it's useful to weave a fantasy for the soldier to believe it's the enemy who's more likely to die than him.
The Forum post is edited by Hartnell Jan 6 '16
Member ShadowLover
Jan 6 '16
Yeah, marines/SAS, and mercenaries etc are a bit crazy and some of them reach the point where they can't do normal anymore. That's when they do me! :)
The military was just one example of people that might embrace sadism as a necessary part of survival. I have mentioned in another thread that I have an addiction to chaos which is a similar type of thing. Due to circumstances I spent many years highly alert and frankly it just doesn't turn off. I am a very placid and peaceful person and am not a drama queen that needs to invite chaos into their life for attention. But normal life makes me shake after a while and I learned to satisfy my need for chaos by watching movies about or writing about macabre and sadistic things - this literally gives me a sense of peace and calms my nerves and shaking. So perhaps I am using controlled sadomasochism to keep me on an even keel.
Fetishes often stem from past experiences or moral guilt. You only have to look at serial killers to see the sadistic manner in which some of these fetishes can be expressed. In BDSM sadism and masochism can be used to safely express or relive shit, hopefully in order to process it.
When I think about it, sadism and masochism seems to be part of our social behaviour, rather than an individual thing. Is one of its purposes as a tool to survive our peers (physically or emotionally) and form social structure (with hierarchy)? Or is this just a collateral result?
The military was just one example of people that might embrace sadism as a necessary part of survival. I have mentioned in another thread that I have an addiction to chaos which is a similar type of thing. Due to circumstances I spent many years highly alert and frankly it just doesn't turn off. I am a very placid and peaceful person and am not a drama queen that needs to invite chaos into their life for attention. But normal life makes me shake after a while and I learned to satisfy my need for chaos by watching movies about or writing about macabre and sadistic things - this literally gives me a sense of peace and calms my nerves and shaking. So perhaps I am using controlled sadomasochism to keep me on an even keel.
Fetishes often stem from past experiences or moral guilt. You only have to look at serial killers to see the sadistic manner in which some of these fetishes can be expressed. In BDSM sadism and masochism can be used to safely express or relive shit, hopefully in order to process it.
When I think about it, sadism and masochism seems to be part of our social behaviour, rather than an individual thing. Is one of its purposes as a tool to survive our peers (physically or emotionally) and form social structure (with hierarchy)? Or is this just a collateral result?
Member ShadowLover
Jan 6 '16
@Hartnell. Will you give me a few examples of what you consider to be real life sadism and masochism, please? And what do you think the participants are getting out of it?
I was not actually talking about the average soldier in the heat of battle, but rather the one who returns home safely and then elects to put himself in equally, if not increasingly, dangerous battles over and over again. I have no doubt they have a chemical addiction of some sort - probably adrenaline and dopamine, but do you not also think that at some stage these fellows would grow to like killing men? I'm not saying it is wrong - it is just part of their life's journey. Or... do you think liking the rush is completely separate form liking the kill?
I was not actually talking about the average soldier in the heat of battle, but rather the one who returns home safely and then elects to put himself in equally, if not increasingly, dangerous battles over and over again. I have no doubt they have a chemical addiction of some sort - probably adrenaline and dopamine, but do you not also think that at some stage these fellows would grow to like killing men? I'm not saying it is wrong - it is just part of their life's journey. Or... do you think liking the rush is completely separate form liking the kill?
Hartnell
Jan 6 '16
Sadists in the wild are different from the general populace in that weakness provokes their sadism. They're worthless peices of shit that like the most defenseless victim they can find, the weaker the better. There's a defense against sadists built into the rules if the earth: moat people will stop if asked to, those who don't are sadists, and have to be spoken to in their language.
Masochists generally come in two types. Those who enjoy being torn down and those who 'push through the pain' for one reason or another for personal growth. This includes everything from running marathons to remaining conscious while being whipped. (For those who know, I'm not getting into subspace here, as it's not directly linked to masochism.)
If you want to understand the mentality of the second type of masochist, listen to Born This Way by Thousand Foot Crutch or It's Going to be a Long Night by Ween
Don't confuse speedfreekery with sadism or masochism. Why would they 'grow to learn to like killing other men'. Personally, I think that thought is beat described as a projection of what's talked about here: http://www.bluetruth.org/...ts_the_Killer_in_You
Yes, I'm saying it most likely turns you on but hey -- self awareness is often the difference between 'reality' and 'fantasy' (or sanity / insanity )
Also, the broad brush of serial killers is way off. Jeffry Dahmer was known to cut off and mummify parts of his victims as well as pour acid through a hole in their skull. He could have cared less if this caused them any suffering -- his aim was to create a mindless living sex doll from a human being.
Member ShadowLover
Jan 7 '16
I don't think all serial killers are sadistic - as you said... It really depends on their intentions. If Jeffrey Dahmer did not get his satisfaction from the person's suffering than he wouldn't be a sadist would he? Just a selfish arsehole...
Still, what is the point of sadistic and masochistic behaviour? Is there a viable reason for it or are some people just broken? One could indulge in masochistic behaviour to make themself stronger. So are these mental states developed for survival? Witnessing sadism could help build up a tolerance for chaos..? To me it seems to be a social thing. Often people who grow up to be sadists subconsciously do so in order to restore the power they lost during childhood abuse - they mimic the oppressor because they don't wish to remain a victim so they become sadist to rearrange the social order.
Hartnell: As for your link - Yes I am aware of my fucked up female ways and am quite comfortable with them. But snags are for breakfast! Lol! My friends and I have come up with a new one -SNAKS - Sensitive New Age Killers. Personally, I blame women's lib! I actually want to get that other book you mentioned about arseholes and chicks and see if it is suitable for me son.
Still, what is the point of sadistic and masochistic behaviour? Is there a viable reason for it or are some people just broken? One could indulge in masochistic behaviour to make themself stronger. So are these mental states developed for survival? Witnessing sadism could help build up a tolerance for chaos..? To me it seems to be a social thing. Often people who grow up to be sadists subconsciously do so in order to restore the power they lost during childhood abuse - they mimic the oppressor because they don't wish to remain a victim so they become sadist to rearrange the social order.
Hartnell: As for your link - Yes I am aware of my fucked up female ways and am quite comfortable with them. But snags are for breakfast! Lol! My friends and I have come up with a new one -SNAKS - Sensitive New Age Killers. Personally, I blame women's lib! I actually want to get that other book you mentioned about arseholes and chicks and see if it is suitable for me son.
The Forum post is edited by ShadowLover Jan 7 '16
Member JicNikk
Jan 7 '16
I don't think all serial killers are sadistic - as you said... It really depends on their intentions. If Jeffrey Dahmer did not get his satisfaction from the person's suffering than he wouldn't be a sadist would he? Just a selfish arsehole...Sorry just got off work. Back read your guys' posts and one point I would like to hit on before I move on is I don't believe Sadism or Masochism is as black and white as you guys make it out to be. There's varying degrees to which I believe everyone has a little bit of both about them.
Still, what is the point of sadistic and masochistic behaviour? Is there a viable reason for it or are some people just broken? One could indulge in masochistic behaviour to make themself stronger. So are these mental states developed for survival? Witnessing sadism could help build up a tolerance for chaos..? To me it seems to be a social thing. Often people who grow up to be sadists subconsciously do so in order to restore the power they lost during childhood abuse - they mimic the oppressor because they don't wish to remain a victim so they become sadist to rearrange the social order.
Hartnell: As for your link - Yes I am aware of my fucked up female ways and am quite comfortable with them. But snags are for breakfast! Lol! My friends and I have come up with a new one -SNAKS - Sensitive New Age Killers. Personally, I blame women's lib! I actually want to get that other book you mentioned about arseholes and chicks and see if it is suitable for me son.
I could say I'm a little sadistic when I draw up a fire plan for my gun pits and place my C4 charges behind my razor wire so that when the enemy charges the line I can blow it and send even more shrapnel down range. Albeit it's a little fucked up, but I believe in demoralization against an oppressing force, and yea I would definitely enjoy it. I wouldn't get trigger happy with it until I knew I was about to get overwhelmed, but still..
I would argue on the point of Dahmer's case that he practiced extreme cruelty towards individuals to attempt a pleasureful goal. This tells me that yes he most definitely had sadistic tendencies because as Hartnel said he was attempting to make veggie sex dolls. Plus, who's to say he didn't enjoy the process? Do you think his mind was completely blank when he severed limbs, or did he possibly have moments when he gave a smirk to the screaming? The man is even quoted at his trial saying that he viewed people as "objects of pleasure instead of people". I'm not sure how much more cut and dry I can make that.
Member ShadowLover
Jan 7 '16
Hi JicNikk, Welcome home! I tend to agree that there are varying degrees of sadism and certainly that everybody has the potential to be sadistic.
There is a big difference between being macabre and sadistic, though. I would consider myself quite macabre, but I wouldn't say I was sadistic. When I make someone bleed it is because I like the blood, not because I want to hurt them. In fact, if they screamed or objected I would stop. I might smile at them and ease them into allowing me to continue, which in itself would make me feel good, but I wouldn't want them to have a bad experience.
However, when I used to play SIMS, sometimes I was a real psycho and locked people in small rooms with no doors until they died. ...Or, Vampires were fun because you could lock them in small room with glass walls and no roof and watch the sizzle in the sunlight. LOL. But for the most part I only enjoy pretend sadism.
There is a big difference between being macabre and sadistic, though. I would consider myself quite macabre, but I wouldn't say I was sadistic. When I make someone bleed it is because I like the blood, not because I want to hurt them. In fact, if they screamed or objected I would stop. I might smile at them and ease them into allowing me to continue, which in itself would make me feel good, but I wouldn't want them to have a bad experience.
However, when I used to play SIMS, sometimes I was a real psycho and locked people in small rooms with no doors until they died. ...Or, Vampires were fun because you could lock them in small room with glass walls and no roof and watch the sizzle in the sunlight. LOL. But for the most part I only enjoy pretend sadism.
Member JicNikk
Jan 10 '16
Sadism plays into extreme cruelty for one's own pleasure to see the other suffer. Agree to disagree with me I suppose, but though real or not I would say you had some slight sadistic tendencies executing those poor SIMS.. shame on you.. *wags finger*
I've always thought of macabre as an atmosphere created by the antagonist as opposed to a mannerism to describe them. I know the word can be applied to either, but I've just never heard of anyone describing themselves as 'macabre' before... sounds.. off I guess.
