Your Personal views on Satanism?N at Satanic International Network...

Anna Sep 16 '15

Quote from Shawn Except when one accepts what one is told, instead of verifying it for themselves...

Seriously, what practical first-hand research have you done to verify that the Earth is round? Unless you're into amateur astronomy, I'd say absolutely none. Otherwise, you've been told and swallowed it whole without question.

Most people are like that. It's not really the matter of naivety or unwillingness to question things. Most people are too ignorant when it comes to science to do even amateur research on their own so they study it from the books. It's also not stupidity as you can't have sufficient knowledge about everything. However, there is no excuse for treating the written word as a dogma. Nothing should stop curiosity and asking questions, even if one doesn't know the answers.

#21

Shawn Sep 16 '15

@Anna:

You might find this interesting.

http:///...rything-you-read.php

#22

Anna Sep 16 '15

And what is education if not giving you dogmas to believe in?

#23

Shawn Sep 16 '15

What kind of edumication?

#24

Heh Sep 16 '15

If you learn something apply it otherwise it is just taking up space. Math can be arbitrary numbers on a page or used to calculate monetary needs and desires. Philosophy can be mental masturbation and conversational sex or the principles applied towards achieving a result.

I would rather work in a job that is giving me tools for my future that I have no choice to utilize because it is part of the job than sit in a school learning about business for a my name on a piece of paper saying that I know something. I can learn the theory of business but I can't become a good businessman by sitting in a classroom.

Dogma = blind faith (literally 'law'), Education = introspection and academic understanding, Theory = presenting an idea, Action = results based upon experience. Omit the dogma and you have yourself a simplified scientific method! (or dogma as 'law' can act as the conclusion).

#25

Anna Sep 16 '15

Quote from FraterMoloch
You call theory a dogma?

If you accept a theory uncritically, without experimenting with it yourself, then it becomes the dogma. This is what you usually have at school: accepting what your teachers say, reading the stuff from books and believing it. Some people even join various forums and write that they believe in evolution. They could as well believe in fairies.

#26

Shawn Sep 16 '15

@Anna:

That's much better than I said it. Kudos for undeniable crystal clarity. If this were a fighting game what you just said would be a fatality. :)

Edit

Correction: That would be a fatality using Scorpion immediately after using the "Get Over Here!" chain grappling move.

The Forum post is edited by Shawn Sep 16 '15

#27

Beavery Sep 16 '15

@Anne
Believing in evolution cannot be compared to believing in fairies. It is logical to believe in that which is supported by evidence and it is illogical to believe in something which is not supported by evidence.
I believe science is a system of human made abstractions designed by people to permit people to organize, understand and in some cases predict the events occurring around them.

#28

Shawn Sep 17 '15

@FraterMoloch:

Has it ever occurred to you to question science, or is your faith in it too strong for that? ;) I'm just kidding.

It's just occured to me that the distiction between 'dogma' and 'science' is a completely moot point. 'Science' isn't counter to dogma. Skepticism is.

Anywho, enjoy. ;)

http://www.newscientist.com/round-up/rewriting-the-textbooks/

#29

Shawn Sep 17 '15

Nice try.

You can't question science is enough. Everything after the 'but' is another debate entirely.

".. Dogma is teachings without question and that's why science is not dogma..." (and yet that can't be questioned, according to you)

You are one confused puppy.

The Forum post is edited by Shawn Sep 17 '15

#30

Shawn Sep 17 '15

I said: "The idea that the Earth is round is a dogma if you never take the time to verify it first hand yourself."

You said: "No, science is not dogma"

If you didn't verify that the Earth is round yourself firsthand then...

Someone had have to told you and you had to have simply believed it...

Thus it's a teaching.

In addition, you've never questioned this teaching, therefore it's dogma, doc.

Either that or you really think the idea the Earth is round is 'science'. Actually, it's a fairly straightforward conjecture which can be verified or falsified using simple engineering. No 'science' required.

Like I said, you're one confused puppy. You know not what is and what isn't this 'science' of which you speak.

The Forum post is edited by Shawn Sep 17 '15

#31

Shawn Sep 17 '15

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/...e-earth-is-not-flat/

Enjoy. ;)

#32

Anna Sep 17 '15

@Frater Moloch
How many ideas living in your head belong to other people? How much information has been just swallowed uncritically by you because you were taught that stuff at school or you simply read it from the books or heard from the "wise people?"

Education is about theory and practice. Right. What does that "practice" look like? Performing the experiments described in the textbooks? Memorizing the stuff you read in your textbooks? Because this is what education generally looks like. Unless you are a scientist and a researcher yourself or you have an amateur laboratory at your home. Or you're gifted.

Actually, most people are too ignorant to verify for themselves the stuff they read about in the scientific books or journals. So they just believe the experts. Science is not everyone's forte.

#33

Beavery Sep 17 '15

@Shawn & Anne Yes, let's just throw out inductive reasoning altogether, who cares if it's mathematically valid, and the only basis to support magic.

#34

Beavery Sep 17 '15

Now that I think about it, I wish you would throw out inductive reasoning altogether so that you would have nothing to speak of beyond an emotional capacity. Then at least you would quit trying so hard to butcher logic and reason.
It looks like some flies cannot be persuaded by honey.

#35

Anna Sep 17 '15

Well Frater, that was very bright of you.

Priests are educated too and they are experts too.

It doesn't matter what you believe in. Everything you believe in becomes your religion.

#36

Beavery Sep 17 '15

If I repeatedly drop a quarter and every time I do it falls, each time I drop it the statistical probability of it falling increases. Should I eventually reach the conclusion that it will fall that would be inductive reasoning as opposed to dogma.

#37

Beavery Sep 17 '15

Of course if you threw out inductive reasoning you might have difficulty in expressing your emotions because the language used to describe them is based upon inductive reasoning. ie. How could you explain how sad you are without a reference based upon induction?

#38

Shawn Sep 17 '15

@Beavery:"@Shawn & Anne Yes, let's just throw out inductive reasoning altogether, who cares if it's mathematically valid, and the only basis to support magic."

You didn't directly address any of my points. I accept aiming for the structure but you missed. It's not inductive reasoning, it's deductive. I deduce that since it's obviously not his original idea, that he must have been told the idea by someone. Then, since he clearly hasn't ever questioned the idea, it's obvious that he swallowed it whole cloth with zero skepticism.

Then I point out that, unless he was trying specifically for a meaniingless non-sequitur, that by responding 'No, science isn't dogma' makes absolutely no sense unlesshe thinks that a 'science fact' (third grade term, not a scientific one' is 'science'. It gets even more absurd by saying that this particular science (actually a science fact) isn't a teaching because it's grade school curriculum.

Math isn't science. (Some but not all) scientists use math, true, but so do waitresses at the local burger joint. Your point is invalid there as much as it was by claiming I was using inductive reasoning.

Look, I'm a programmer. I understand the actual math of logic. If you want to pretentiously claim something like that again I'm going to have to ask you to 'show your work'.

And, it's the only basis for magick? You've clearly never read my blogs, and moreover, clearly have no clue about magick. I am a practicing magician but I don't usually talk about magick in mysterious terms -- though I understand what they refer to. Instead, I normally speak about magick the languages of engineering and psychology. Yes, the real shit, not the pop shit.

If you'd like to fart in the wind some more at least quote my post and address the quote directly.

The Forum post is edited by Shawn Sep 17 '15

#39

Beavery Sep 17 '15

@Shawn Deduction is the tool by which we process statistical data collected by our senses. It's the other side of the coin, deduction and induction are additional examples of a duality and balance in nature.
I have a degree in computer engineering among other degrees. I had to design a microprocessor back in the day and write an assembler for it. Your degree in C.S. or whatever has more bearing on the subject at hand than any of my degrees or whatever.
Yes, I've questioned this idea and just about every other idea that has ever been presented to me.

#40

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