Forgiveness? | Forum

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NZ_Mike
NZ_Mike Aug 24 '15
At what point is forgiveness offered? To whom is it offered? Is forgiveness earned? 

I had a situation where someone caused a lot of unnecessary drama and bull shit

Accused a very good friend of mine of something that should NEVER be just thrown around

I recently came across this individual in the exact same place as he had left in a huff and tried to cause damage to, all very "sorry" for what he had done.

Now, I am not a person to forgive, so, i told him exactly what i thought of him and what he had done in no uncertain terms lol

But this got me to thinking, what if that person actually meant  something to me? i.e. a close long time friend?

Now, im not asking for inter personal advice or even that kind of take on this subject, I mean in a purely Satanic context 

Does the Satanist forgive?

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Shawn
Shawn Aug 24 '15

"When a Satanist commits a wrong, he realizes that is it natural to make a mistake―and if he is truly sorry about what he has done, he will learn from it and take care not to do the same thing again. If he is not honestly sorry about what he has done, and knows he will do the same thing over and over, he has no business confessing and asking forgiveness in the first place.” 

― Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

NZ_Mike
NZ_Mike Aug 24 '15
ok, cool

But at what point do we give him the benefit of the doubt? 

how do we gauge how "honestly sorry" he is?

Do we just trust that he is truly sorry and accept him at face value?

Surly that stance takes some trust of him in the first place, trust that has been destroyed by the action he is "truly sorry" for in the first place

Shawn
Shawn Aug 24 '15
"Satan represents...


* Responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!


* Kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!"


Actions speak louder than words or tears. If someone knocks over you drink, is it not appropriate to apologize and buy you another drink?

Shawn
Shawn Aug 24 '15
@Corvus:


"Among high order predators, the least fit hunters eat last, or not at all. The strongest are sated first, and what remains is fought over and won in keeping with the standing order of stratefication in place."


Actually, that's called 'pecking order' and and it's a bit of a stretch to call chickens predators of birdseed. At any rate, pecking order amounts to a hierarchical bully system and it's counter to what LaVey had in mind when he wrote about stratification. Stratification means "water finds it's own level" not "keep the chicken down" or something that means "Kill the Klingon above you to rise in rank."


"Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world." --Das Satanic Sins


While I'm at it, I call bullshit on your term "higher order predator" your use of the term "nature". We're higher up on the food chain but don't 'predate the cow' and heh, bonobo.

The Forum post is edited by Shawn Aug 24 '15
NZ_Mike
NZ_Mike Aug 25 '15
@ Shawn

Is Levay the be all and end all of your Satanism?

i would call bull shit on that

Sure, he wrote what is possibly the first book on modern Satanism, but to put him in the position of prophet or messiah or take your life lessons from that ONE book runs way to close to another group of fools for my liking

And as for your last sentence, do you mean by "predate", to hunt?

If so, the only reason we dont hunt or "predate" cows is, we grow them and can buy them in handy pre-packaged parcels in the supermarket.

If we didnt farm cows you can bet your ass we would hunt or "predate" them

But if you mean cows "pre-date" i.e came before, humans. Im not sure what your trying to say with that.

Shawn
Shawn Aug 25 '15
Here you go: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/predate#Verb_2


Give me a few and I'll address the whole post.

Shawn
Shawn Aug 25 '15
"Is Levay the be all and end all of your Satanism?"


What do you mean, 'my Satanism'? You do understand that Satanists are individualists first?


This video may help. It's a classic. And yes, that's me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMhoIJWJ3to


Compare to:

http://www.churchofsatan.com/worlds-most-powerful-religion.php


Fair warning this is a noob mistake:


" Sure, he wrote what is possibly the first book on modern Satanism, but to put him in the position of prophet or messiah or take your life lessons from that ONE book runs way to close to another group of fools for my liking"


Ah yes. Rather than trying to understand Satanism, you run with that ignorance! Raise the spectre of Christianity! Be yet someone else to ... http://www.nizkor.org/...-by-association.html

NZ_Mike
NZ_Mike Aug 25 '15
Ok let me break this down for you

What do you mean, 'my Satanism'? You do understand that Satanists are individualists first?

Yes, i do understand that Satanists are individualists first, and would have thought that was the point of the question in the first place hence the "your" in the sentence

"your", that which belongs to you: the individual

I also found your reply curious, being accused of being a small minded, CoS kinda guy you choose to include a Cos link in your argument against being a small minded CoS kind of guy therefore confirming and validating my point in the first place (might want to work on your debating skills there bud)    


This video may help. It's a classic. And yes, that's me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMhoIJWJ3to

We can compare quality of video content if you wish but at this point, REALLY not looking good for you lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFLhef-Xk00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3aT4Bk64zQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6QdI8tnLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEgRVcC_QZ4

and, yes, that is me, you can tell because each video has a point

and the last point i will address 

"Is Levay the be all and end all of your Satanism?"



Quote from Shawn

"When a Satanist commits a wrong, he realizes that is it natural to make a mistake―and if he is truly sorry about what he has done, he will learn from it and take care not to do the same thing again. If he is not honestly sorry about what he has done, and knows he will do the same thing over and over, he has no business confessing and asking forgiveness in the first place.” 

― Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible


"Satan represents...


* Responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!


* Kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!"


Now, i could go on and deconstruct your every post in this thread, your every video, of which i could see only one that actually makes any sense at all or has ANY point but i fear the time you took reading a long winded post from a "newbie" would:1: waste my time 2:upset your obviously fragile reading comprehension skills3: take precious time that would be much better spent for you READING OTHER BOOKS

Shawn
Shawn Aug 25 '15
*I* belong to me. 


Satanism doesn't belong to me.


Satanism is something to be understood, not to be, or do. So there's no "my Satanism" or "your Satanism" -- you either understand it or you don't. In the same way you understand Nietzsche or you don't.


It's equally absurd to speak about (or claim) an individual ubermensch concept unique to each person who understands and appreciates Nietzsche. The fact that someone is claiming such shows they didn't bother to understand the concept in the first place.


It would be equally absurd to claim that someone thought Nietzche was some kind of prophet for quoting Nietzche while discussing the philosophy he laid out.


"READING OTHER BOOKS" -- since you seem to be unable to do something as simple as open a webpage and read a simple description of this particular intellectual bullshit you're using, here it is: 


"Guilt by Association is a fallacy in which a person rejects a claim simply because it is pointed out that people she dislikes accept the claim. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


It is pointed out that people person A does not like accept claim P.

Therefore P is false


It is clear that sort of "reasoning" is fallacious. For example the following is obviously a case of poor "reasoning": "You think that 1+1=2. But, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, and Ted Bundy all believed that 1+1=2. So, you shouldn't believe it."


The fallacy draws its power from the fact that people do not like to be associated with people they dislike. Hence, if it is shown that a person shares a belief with people he dislikes he might be influenced into rejecting that belief. In such cases the person will be rejecting the claim based on how he thinks or feels about the people who hold it and because he does not want to be associated with such people.


Of course, the fact that someone does not want to be associated with people she dislikes does not justify the rejection of any claim. For example, most wicked and terrible people accept that the earth revolves around the sun and that lead is heavier than helium. No sane person would reject these claims simply because this would put them in the company of people they dislike (or even hate)."

The Forum post is edited by Shawn Aug 25 '15
Shawn
Shawn Aug 25 '15
@Corvus


"I'm having trouble comprehending what the other parts of your statement meant. "
Which parts? Let me know and I'll clarify. 

Then I'll respond to your points.

Shawn
Shawn Aug 25 '15

I think I get what you're saying now. All life takes from it's environment what it needs. Would you agree with that statement? Essentially, life eats life except plankton.


I'm a bit more general than that. Everything is ultimately a black box to me. A black box is the generic building block for modeling anything systemic. It's just a 'thing' which has a containing boundary which has inputs and outputs through which it interacts with it's environment. 


The black box is useful because it's easier to understand systems of cells, organs, people, transistors, computers, groups, factories, nations, etc when you realize that they all have the same basic structure to which the same fundamental principles apply.


Want to kill a cell? Person? Nation?


* compromise it's integrity

* block it's inputs and outputs


So, back to predation. The prey and the predator are linked in more ways than the one-way capture of prey by the predator. They are evolutionary pressures on each other and thus evolve as a self-regulating unit. This is why transplanting a native species from one location to a foreign location (for the species) is an ecological disaster: the native species isn't regulated in the same way it was in the local system where it evolved. The predator finds it's new prey easy because it didn't develop defenses against it like the predators natural prey did during their co-evolution -- so the prey becomes extinct and this leads to wider systemic effects. Also, since the predator's population isn't being checked by a another predator or other environmental factor (cold weather) -- it rampantly breeds and spreads causing more extinctions of species of prey.


Humans have no natural restraints except the lack of claws, teeth, speed, camouflage -- the things which make a predator successful. Instead, humans have adapted and innovated ways to hunt when it so obviously doesn't come as a part of our DNA. My personal view of humans is that we're explorers and innovators. While humans have developed technology which makes it easy to kill for food, and since innovation and adaptation is our survival strategy, we've innovated in a million different ways no natural predator could understand -- all the way to the moon and back. Unfortunately, with nothing to check humans and because they're horrible at self-regulation they've been known to hunt out a species of millions in a few short years.


So, in closing that section, humans aren't predators. Hunting is another adaptation (and or innovation)  just like clothing, farming, television, cell phones, etc etc.


"By "nature" I was referring to the wilderness. I realize it's a very general term, and it was meant to be. The predation of the wilderness has its parrallel to predation found in a housing project, the board rooms of fortune 500 companies, a highschool locker room, or a neighborhood play ground. Predatory behavior, in the sense that I mean it, is ubiquitous."


I seem to have missed all the cannibalism that this paragraph predicts throughout all the years I was growing up. I agree that somethings going on there, but I wouldn't call it predation because the predator doesn't eat it's prey. Ah, I found the perfect word. I hope you don't mind but I'm going to quote your last paragraph again but with a slight change :


"By "nature" I was referring to the wilderness. I realize it's a very general term, and it was meant to be. The parasites of the wilderness has its parrallel to parasitic behavior found in a housing project, the board rooms of fortune 500 companies, a highschool locker room, or a neighborhood play ground. Parasitic behavior, in the sense that I mean it, is ubiquitous."

Shawn
Shawn Aug 28 '15
Just because predators and parasites make better Hollywood movies, it doesn't mean that's all there is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(biology)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis

Shawn
Shawn Aug 28 '15
@Corvus:


"Forgiveness is a social construct. When it's used, it reflects the values of the forgiver as much as the forgiven."


How so?

Shawn
Shawn Aug 28 '15
It's predation, but it's not instinctual predation. It's an adaptation in the software rather than the hardware. The hardware just has "hunger" , the hardware has "innovation". Sharp sticks applied to wild animals to satisfy hunger is both predation and an adaptation. As an adaptation, it's one of many thousands. 


This is counter to something like a cat, who has several different instinctual needs serving predation, one of them to swat at strings of yarn. 

Shawn
Shawn Sep 4 '15

"All depending on the situation and graveness of the fault. 


A Satanist is human after all. Forgiveness is a choice made by humans. Time in any instance will always tell. "


Thanks, Dimitri, for getting this thread back on topic. :)

NZ_Mike
NZ_Mike Sep 5 '15
Indeed, thank you Dimitri

I guess i was addressing the space in time that you initially forgive someone and the time when they prove they are deserving of that forgiveness

If you have only just met this person doesn't it require an amount of faith  on the forgivers part to bridge that space in time?

The Forum post is edited by NZ_Mike Sep 5 '15
Shawn
Shawn Sep 5 '15
@NZ -- Trust but verify? 
NZ_Mike
NZ_Mike Sep 5 '15

Quote from Shawn @NZ -- Trust but verify? 
good call Shawn
RevMel Member
RevMel Feb 14 '16
In my opinion, when the offender has made, or attempted amends in an honest fashion. Otherwise, forget it. Just turn your back, and move on. Dwelling gives them more power in your life.
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