Does Satanism attract failures? at Satanic International Network Forum

Member

Troll Oct 22 '15

Quote from Anna

Quote from troll
The whole 'Stupidity is Sin' thing makes sense if you are talking about particular actions which are demonstrably stupid actions taken by otherwise smart people. Those with intelligence have no excuse for their action and therefore they may be faulted MORALLY for their inattentiveness, follies, or futility

I think this whole thing with Satanic Sins was a tongue in cheek just like the very name "Church of Satan" was a sort of an ironic jab at Christian Church. LaVey does away with the Christian sins and introduces instead his set of "sins." They are only sins by name, having nothing to do with morality. One could interpret them as sins against the reality. If one commits them, reality is likely to correct these sins/mistakes, which means one can suffer consequences for one's actions.

Please justify this with a quote from anyone in the Church of Satan. I have confirmed to my satisfaction that the desire to label stupid behaviour from otherwise intelligent people as a moral failure is part of Jewish culture such that LaVey would have emphasized this, completely seriously, no tongue in cheek about it. Calling stupid people sinners is itself stupid.

The Forum post is edited by Troll Oct 22 '15

#61

Member

Troll Oct 22 '15

Quote from Padowan
Stupidity will be revealed through a consistent and persistent choice to ignore logic and reason. Whereas you and I will realize when a refutation is sound others will outright ignore the logic, no, deny the existence of the logic itself.
The winner of this debate, unfortunately, will not be the one that demonstrates a sound argument but instead it will be the most persistent....

Padowan, the wider issue here is as relates to "failures", and one might fault Christianity moreso than Satanism for its coddling of such individuals both natally and by effort demonstrating failure as animal or mammal and as professional in character.

Where morality enters into it (granted it isn't tongue in cheek as asserted by Anna), surely the intention is to dissuade one's fellows from replicating particular behaviours. Winning arguments isn't usually the long-term goal of such 'sin lists'.

Again, it is nonsensical to attribute moral failure to something that one cannot change. Calling stupid people out on breaking Satanic sins is demonstrating that one has not actually understood either morality or stupidity as a sin in Satanism (and therefore is at least sinful, if not a testimony as to one's own stupidity).

#62

Padowan Oct 23 '15

@troll
Before I even reply to your response have you even read my earlier post directly related to failures on this thread?
When you have read it then please address me on the issues of failure and stupidly as separate issues, as I have.
You have made some errors in assumptions of my arguments, of which there are two distinctly separate conversations going on in this thread.
I will address your assumptions when I get to a laptop.

#63

Anna Oct 23 '15

Quote from troll
Please justify this with a quote from anyone in the Church of Satan. I have confirmed to my satisfaction that the desire to label stupid behaviour from otherwise intelligent people as a moral failure is part of Jewish culture such that LaVey would have emphasized this, completely seriously, no tongue in cheek about it. Calling stupid people sinners is itself stupid.

Appeal to the authority? All right. If you need an authorized statement here is a quote from CoS Magister Nemo posted on Letters to the Devil forum:

If you simply view Satanism as a religion that respects reality as it is (and NOT as people might think it is, wish it to be, or pretend that it is) then Satanic Sins are "sins" against reality.

Reality has a tendency to correct these errors.

To put it another way, certain aspects of reality are wise to acknowledge and respect, rather than to mindlessly fight against.

Take gravity.

If you respect it you will not only avoid a lot of pitfalls (and other falls) but by working with gravity and other aspects of reality you can leverage gravity to work for you instead of against you.

Solipsism

The same guy also wrote that there is no stupid person, only stupid behaviors. You're not defined by your deeds. It's true to some extent though I sometimes suspect that many people are stupid by nature. Anyway, other people judge you by your deeds.

#64

Padowan Oct 23 '15

@ troll

1) Quit cherry picking my quotes for content when it should be taken in its entirety. The last sentence, that you omitted, reflected the satirical nature of the post itself. You missed the obvious.

2) Pay attention to what I actually write. Don't attribute other people's opinions to my own. You implied meanings I never stated (morality.) Read my words carefully. Don't assume your own derived meaning from what it is actually written. At no point did I ever mention MORALITY.

3) Based on the fact I was never discussing Morality your entire post to me is 'nonsensical' as it appears you used your chance to address me as an opportunity to spew your own absolutely unrelated ideas with total disregard of addressing anything I actually said. Why address me at all. It's obvious you weren't speaking to me or referencing one point I have made regarding failure or stupidity or sins.

4) How do you "dissuade one's fellows" from particular behaviors. Two ways: show them a mirror and stop rewarding them. The mirror smacks them of truth and reality they cannot deny, if they choose to not deceive themselves. When they refuse to look in the mirror then stop giving them the attention they don't deserve. It saves you both needless effort, thus no heads banging against walls.

5) I'm all about winning. If you can help someone discover a way to improve their own understanding of others and themselves everyone wins.

#65

Member

Troll Oct 24 '15

Quote from Padowan

::What's wrong with failures?

::It's just proof you do not accept someone else's standards and expectations.

That all depends on whether you associate with Satanists so as to become a success.

Quotes from Padowan

::'Success' doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what goals you pursue

::if you ever pursue any. It doesn't matter if you keep changing

::your mind. It's your life.

::...Success is a personal, subjective standard. So is failure.

::They are both illusions....

That's illogical. Either they are illusions or they are subjective standards, or, as others have used conventional standards, they are general references to societal aims. It was obvious to me that the OP is talking about conventional societal standards and focussed on those who are very likely pursuing them and failing to reach them. Those people, it is posited, affiliate with Satanists in order that some success might rub off on them.

Quotes from Padowan

::The Satanic Sins represent things to avoid if you are to exemplify all

::that is laid out in the SB as guidelines for the Satanist. ...

The truly stupid cannot choose to exemplify that intelligence.

Quotes from Padowan

::...Calling them sins gives them relatability to the ones entrapped by

::old standards of belief.

It is itself enmired in the crap of Christian dualism, and therefore has either a moral significance or is being stupid alongside them.

Quotes from Padowan

::...you and I will realize when a refutation is sound ....

I cannot confirm this about you at this point. You think the debate will have winners, and you are "all about winning" so we are here for very different reasons and may have different standards in evaluating what is written. For some reason you view those with the last word as winners (persistence). I see that merely as an indicator of available time and interest.

Quotes from Padowan

::Stupidity will be revealed through a consistent and persistent choice to

::ignore logic and reason. ....

That's illogical if you're not talking about a moral selection. The truly stupid cannot make the choice to be intelligent.

Quotes from Padowan

::It's obvious you weren't speaking to me or referencing one point I have

::made regarding failure or stupidity or sins.

I was speaking to you in my immediate reply but not in the rest. I'm setting a different standard here for your benefit and based on your request. I'm doing my best with this awkward technology.

Quotes from troll

::/::Where morality enters into it ... surely the intention is to dissuade one's

::/::fellows from replicating particular behaviours.

Quotes from Padowan

::How do you "dissuade one's fellows" from particular behaviors{?}....

In this instance, it seems to me intended to describe behaviours which will cause those who are using the standard involved to treat those exhibiting the behaviours negatively, as by ostricizing or avoiding them. If they care to affiliate, and they have the capacity, then they'll avoid the behaviours or conditions.

Where stupidity is a condition, it cannot be avoided. Where it is an action taken by otherwise intelligent people ('being stupid'), then it is avoidable and affiliation based on whether someone does stupid things will be negotiated. You said something similar.

The Forum post is edited by Troll Oct 24 '15

#66

Padowan Oct 24 '15

@troll

Thank you.

Your attention to detail is appreciated.

I will take some time to respond.

The Forum post is edited by Padowan Oct 24 '15

#67

littlewickedlady Oct 25 '15

I would like to put in my thoughts on this matter. It's true there are lazy butts who just use the term satanist to stir up drama. I do believe however there are those who appear lazy and stupid, but are simply ignorant. They've just recently been freed of religious or cultural servitude. They just now fully understand what they are capable of having and being. Now they are having to relearn how to function without chains and a slave master. When I see such people I take it upon myself to show them the door. whether they walk through it is their choice. But abandoning them because they are weak minded after years of brain washing and abuse seems rather harsh. So i speak up despite the first earthly rule.

I will admit I've spent the last year licking my own wounds. I don't make any excuses. I'm the only one who's going to heal me from the inside out. Now that I know where my faults lay, I'm in search of the how and why. I intend to to grow to be strong and free again.

This whole site is a support system for me. I'm so grateful for all of you.

#68

Padowan Oct 25 '15

@troll

“::...Success is a personal, subjective standard. So is failure.

::They are both illusions....

That's illogical. Either they are illusions or they are subjective standards, or, as others have used conventional standards, they are general references to societal aims. It was obvious to me that the OP is talking about conventional societal standards and focussed on those who are very likely pursuing them and failing to reach them. Those people, it is posited, affiliate with Satanists in order that some success might rub off on them.”

Let’s begin with my use of ‘subjective standard.’ In some cases, a subjective standard is interpreted as the ‘norm’ or ‘viewpoint of the prevailing population.’ That is NOT the meaning of which I was implying. More often than not, when I use the word ‘subjective’ I am referring to the personal and often biased viewpoint of an individual, as opposed to the objective viewpoint. So when I used the term ‘subjective standard’ in reference to success and failure I am referring to the standards one sets for oneself. The OP was referring to standards of success and failure set by others, society and/or culture, upon individuals. In order to call me a failure I have to accept your standards. Therefore, success and failure are ‘subjective’ standards because I can refuse to accept your standards much like I can refuse to accept your beliefs and perceptions. All three, standards, beliefs, and perceptions of understanding, are created internally within our minds and are heavily influenced by our experiences. Being that all three are internal mental constructs they are subject to malleability, meaning they are all in our imagination. The outside world exists and moves on without my imagined standards, beliefs and perceptions. These things are self-created imagined realities, which are no more than illusions.

“Quotes from Padowan

::The Satanic Sins represent things to avoid if you are to exemplify all

::that is laid out in the SB as guidelines for the Satanist. ...

Quote from troll

The truly stupid cannot choose to exemplify that intelligence.”

No argument there.

Quote from Padowan

“@troll

Stupidity will be revealed through a consistent and persistent choice to ignore logic and reason. Whereas you and I will realize when a refutation is sound others will outright ignore the logic, no, deny the existence of the logic itself.

The winner of this debate, unfortunately, will not be the one that demonstrates a sound argument but instead it will be the most persistent. Personally, I choose not to beat my head against walls. Good luck. ;)”

This was a tongue in cheek forewarning. You have yet to understand what I was referring to exactly so disputing the points I made as though I was making a definitive statement would be senseless. You may or may not come to the same realization I have. Only time will tell. For further clarification you can PM me.

Quote from troll

I cannot confirm this about you at this point. You think the debate will have winners, and you are "all about winning" so we are here for very different reasons and may have different standards in evaluating what is written. For some reason you view those with the last word as winners (persistence). I see that merely as an indicator of available time and interest.

No, I don’t think having the last word determines a winner. That is exactly why it was tongue in cheek. I was attempting to forewarn you. As I said before, when understanding is reached and misunderstandings are resolved everyone is a winner. “Winning” in this context does not imply a loser.

“Quote from troll:

so we are here for very different reasons and may have different standards in evaluating what is written.”

You demonstrated my first point about ‘subjective standards’ very well here. You and I can have “different” standards, whether they be about success, failure, winning, losing, morality, understanding, evaluation and even our reason to be here.

The Forum post is edited by Padowan Oct 25 '15

#69

Member

Millsy Dec 19 '15

"if you're a drug addict, but a billionaire who can afford all the cocaine in the world, I'd call your life a success."

life goals....

I'm considered "successful" but my life is boring as hell. And I wish I had a sac of cocaine.

I make more than most of my peers and own a home in a neighborhood described as a (enclave of the rich), used to have 2 cars but totaled one driving drunk into an electrical pole. No DUI though, I'm always lucid enough to appear sober.

cheers to success

hail satan

#70

ol' grimey Apr 12 '16

To be frank, succinct and to the point, yes, oddly enough Satanism does indeed attract failures. These ones may be attracted to Satanism out of desperation, particularly desperation for a much needed ego boost in order to pretend they are elite top of the stratification pyramid, simply because theys spell good and that. Meanwhile, they fail in not only material success if they crave it, but also in psychological/spiritual success in that they remain the raving alcoholic they've always been for the past twenty+ years, they remain over all in any/all low psychological states they've always been in since their mama pushed them out; no type of progress anywhere at all....but hey, at least theys spell good and look down on the homeless and shit like that right?

The Forum post is edited by ol' grimey Apr 12 '16

#71

ol' grimey Apr 12 '16

I just realized something, the OP is verbatim to an article I stumbled on round about a week ago. I'm not sure if you copied and pasted this while discarding the rest of the article what went ahead and explicitly mentioned SIN, along with those who matriculate SIN as being the failures spoken of in the title.

I hope I can find that article again, so I can show and prove, only I have to remember the exact key words/tags I used when I stumbled upon that article. Time to retrace my steps to find the original article.

The Forum post is edited by ol' grimey Apr 12 '16

#72

Chapter Head

johnnywatts Sep 15 '16

Quote from ol' grimey
I just realized something, the OP is verbatim to an article I stumbled on round about a week ago. I'm not sure if you copied and pasted this while discarding the rest of the article what went ahead and explicitly mentioned SIN, along with those who matriculate SIN as being the failures spoken of in the title.
I hope I can find that article again, so I can show and prove, only I have to remember the exact key words/tags I used when I stumbled upon that article. Time to retrace my steps to find the original article.

I wrote the entire opening post from scratch, way back in August 2015...

#73

Nael Aug 20 '17

If I'm honest, I would call my life so far a "failure". And yes, maybe that's why Satanism caught my interest. I used to cry about how hard life was and how unlucky I am. But somewhen I realized, that it wouldn't get better on its own.
It's all up to me. And Satanism is a kindly reminder that I have to take responsibility for myself. I have to grow stronger myself, and at this point, I know that I can do it. That doesn't mean I have reached anything yet. I'm still learning. If that makes me a "bad satanist" so be it. I don't care.

#74

TITS

EpicFail Jun 21 '21

@JohnnyWatts;
What makes a person a complete failure? Humans are complex creatures. While I think being human is highly overrated, 99% of us are not failures.
Do you define a person by their job or lack there of?
Can we not be successful at other aspects of life?
Indeed, being a satanist involves balance of self-motivation and pleasure.

but my motivations and pleasures may be different than the typical "american dream seekers."
Life is not so simple as to follow one narrow path leading to generic success.
I don't know where I am going with this... but I would have to know a person fairly well before I defined them as "failure." because that's like giving up.

#75

Wolfie Jun 21 '21

EpicFail, I agree with you. Only I have enough information to judge my life. Everyone else needs to shut the fuck up.

And even if I do judge my life thus far to be have been a failure, that doesn't mean that I, as a living entity, am a failure. I can always change course and use my past mistakes as warnings as to what I no longer want to do.

Having said all that, I'll also acknowledge the point being made in some of the early posts to this thread: Some people are drawn to the Church of Satan with its hierarchy because they know if they parrot LaVey and kiss magisters' asses relentlessly, they can acquire a social status they've failed to acquire in any other way. This is why I reject all hierarchy in Satanism. Hierarchy is for sycophants.

#76

Anna Jun 21 '21

I've just realized that since I work for the minimum wage, I qualify as a loser. Damn, at least now I know what I'm doing here. If I had enough of self-criticism and sense of irony, I would change my username to "epic fail" or something similar.

Any other losers here who would wish to join me in the losers' parade?

The Forum post is edited by Anna Jun 21 '21

#77

NUTZ

Geraldo Respuesta Jun 21 '21

Quote from Anna I've just realized that since I work for the minimum wage, I qualify as a loser. Damn, at least now I know what I'm doing here. If I had enough of self-criticism and sense of irony, I would change my username to "epic fail" or something similar.

Any other losers here who would wish to join me in the losers' parade?

I just learned about your country.

Anna makes minimum wage in Poland, which I have learned is "2800 PLN", or the equivalent of $761 USD per month, or $4.75/hour at 40 hours of week. The US federal minimum is $7.25/hour or $1,160 a month.

After doing the conversion I have learned my monthly income (@ 40 hours a week) is the equivalent of 14,700 PLN. However, in the city I live it makes me 38th percentile in income, and well below the "low income" threshold for a single family household.

So I will join you in being a loser.

The Forum post is edited by Geraldo Respuesta Jun 21 '21

#78

Anna Jun 21 '21

Are you kidding me? 14,700 a month? My God, you would be like Croesus in Poland. Our deputies earn less.

#79

Cornelius Coburn Jun 21 '21

I guess I'm somewhere above the halfway point between you two. Sometimes I have lots leftover, and on occasion not enough, like today with the alternator BS and having to buy more tools.

#80

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