Altruism | Forum

OP, I can't say that the study you're talking about has any validity in the way you claim it does. Your claim is too vague:

1. What hypothesis was being tested?

2. How was this hypothesis being tested? Ex. What was the act o altruism and how did the experimenters evoke it in their subjects?

3. What part of the brain was activated, for how long and when? What other functions are linked with it?

As you've put it 'brain light up 'cause altruism' is meaningless. Your post more than likely has more with what you want to be true than with 'science.'

Dunno. I can't speculate, only offer a comparison which shows it's not that simple.

Is language hardwired into the brain? Well, yes, and not really.

There's a type of aphasia where a person loses the link between the meaning words, but not the sound of the words themselves. People with this kind of aphasia speak in a kind of word salad.

Then there's a another kind of aphasia where they seem to forget the sounds associated with a word, they speak in garbled nonsense.

It gets better. These aphasias can affect understanding or producing language, sometimes both, but not always.

The point I'm trying to make is that the capacity for speech is built into our wetware, but is built up from functional units we don't understand very well. It's like looking at a lego model and not quite being able to see how the lego bricks fit together to make up the model.

If altruism was hardwired into the brain, would Satanists be rejecting the inherent rules for self-survival's sake?

Inherent rules?  Brain function != objective morality. Nice try.

 There's a word for people who theoritcally could go beyond the function of their own hardwired wetware -- transhuman. Satanism, by definition isn't transhumanism, and therefore everything we're capable of doing or not doing is a part of the function of the brain, no trancendence required.

Empathy is the innate glue that holds us together as social animals.

The concept of "altruism" is a different beast. Altruism is taught via cultural indoctrination.

IMO, "altruism" is a brick in the civilization slave complex, constructed as a necessary vehicle to gradually transform Man from bushman to gentleman.

/Nietzsche

Generally, Science is to be taken with a grain of salt, like everything else.  My experience is my most trustworthy teacher.  When I learn of new Scientific theories or breakthroughs, I go "huh, look at that."  That's the most it's getting out of me, personally.

Science can help explain how things work, but it's certainly not going to change my views just because "it says so, right here in this research document."  If I wanted a system to feed me a paradigm, I'd just suck a bible with the rest of em.

Do the research, even if it makes you "racist" or "inhumane".  I'm sure stem-cell research could be a great benefit, as could understanding the nature of intelligence across the ethnic spectrum; but until Science nut's up, it will receive little more than my circumstantial, divided attention.

I won't belittle your hope in Science, you're entitled to your view, I just find it futile, at least at this point in human history. 

I however have chosen to believe that people from time to time do help each other because they actually care about another person. They expect nothing in return, they get nothing from it. They only care about helping someone and seeing them succeed. 

It's an overwhelming feeling that I had to experience multiple times before I understood it, and on occasion return to other people. 

Your argument is irrational. Saying that altruism is a "purely selfish concept" is a misunderstanding of the word. Selfless concern for others. Reducing this feeling down to emotional or intellectual gratification makes it something other than what it is. 

One could argue that any outward expression is self serving. Which is not always the case. I think this is a fundamental breakdown in your philosophy of being able to relate with other people. What a sad perspective to view every action of kindness, empathy, or love as an ulterior motive for the individual. 

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. As a case could be made for both perspectives I believe. Just exposing you to a different viewpoint.

What altruism "is" is what we're putting into question.  We're trying to dissect the parts of the sum to reach an answer.

I see where I went out of context on your quote, my mistake.  To speak to your quote within context, I don't see how you would go about demonstrating altruism by experiencing, what it appears to be, from someone else.  As you said, you don't know what that person was thinking or feeling.

I also think you're giving selfishness a bum rap.  It is my, and many others in this particular circle's understanding, that self-preservation is nature's highest law.  It stands to reason that even on the micro-scale, every action taken by an individual is rooted in that hardwired principal.  

Denoting self-preservation to the antithesis of empathy, kindness or love, takes too broad of a stroke and misses the mark entirely.  I would even go so far as to say the concept of altruism is the antithesis of self-preservation.  An entirely selfless act is likely the most unnatural act any living being can theoretically perform; so much so, that the very concept itself is impossible to demonstrate beyond speculation.

nikey69,

I don't think knee-jerk reactions are outside of either of our psychological understanding.  Man can be trained just as well as a dog, and I see no difference between a human diving in the train tracks to save a child's life, and a puppy getting a treat for jumping through a hoop.  (Psychologically speaking)  You can ingrain ideals into people that will motivate them to surrender their own lives to save another, but without those ideals firmly ingrained, the action would not take place.  

If we're to attempt at understanding the nature of ourselves, we have to parallel the topics in every possible direction in nature.  From our closest relative the Chimp, to micro bacteria, removing influential or suggestive manipulation, has altruism, by it's philosophical definition ever been demonstrated?  How would we even begin to look for it? 

" I would even go so far as to say the concept of altruism is the antithesis of self-preservation."

Apples and oranges my friend. I can show someone else support without sacrificing anything myself. Just because you give to someone else doesn't mean you take away from yourself. 

I can see both sides of the fence on this one. Having been a Satanist for awhile myself I can only tell you that when you experience it for yourself it'll blow your fucking mind. 

Agree to disagree good sir. 

"I am less interested in its actuality, but rather, more interested in why some people feel the need to vehemently espouse its fallacy. I get the impression, sometimes, that some people try to justify being a heartless asshole."

BAM! hit the nail on the head. I thought this way for awhile. Thinking I was less than or on the losing end of an emotional transaction with people. Altruism I equate to love. Only showing it to people that truly matter in my life. 

Ken,

This isn't a matter of disagreement, this is a matter of ignorance.  If you had any way for me to replicate your system of demonstrating the existence of altruism other than, "take my word for it" and this system worked for you, but not for me, then it would be a disagreement.

What you've done is ignore evidence of sound, rational and practical nature, and clung to your own ideals, effectively unwilling to reconsider your views in the face of such evidence.  Not great for intellectual growth.

Furthermore, you're defending an idea which is completely counter to Satanism 101, self-preservation.

With all of these points made plainly clear, is "Satanic" still an accurate descriptor for yourself?  I'm not one who plays the "who's a true Satanist" game, but really ask yourself that question. 

EDITED: had to take a crap really bad.

You're right, you do not need to sacrifice anything to further someone else, but that isn't the point.  The point is there is always gain for the self in every action one takes.  The mind has it's own self-interest, whether you accept that or not.  This is what makes altruism an impossible concept.

Did you know that if you attempted to inhale water in a deep breath, your brain would instinctively stop you?  This is the mind's way of preserving oxygen for the body.  It is unconcerned with your will, or your desires, because self-preservation is undeniably nature's highest law.  Self-interest wins out every single time.

I'm not saying all of this to fight with you.  I wouldn't waste my time on such meaningless shit.  I'm saying this because it's important to understand, and I do think you have the potential to grasp this.  Call it my faith in you, lol.